Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.
Related Links
Download Notes (Glen’s sermon notes)
Life Group Discussion Questions
Download mp3
We love our Pastors and our Pantano Church Fmily!
The worship and messages from last week and today are “liberating”. Too often we get stuck on the literal words of the Bible and sermons but we miss the message. We hear words with our ears, but not our hearts. Pantano has set us free from getting stuck on the words, and has opened our hearts to hear the WORD – both the historical facts and the metaphores build up the same truth.
You have empowered us to set side our judgemental thoughts and opened our arms to love people to Jesus. Knowing that Jesus is a friend of tax collectors and sinners means that He loves me. This allows me to love everyone that God causes to cross my path.
May the challangea of the past week strengthen and encourage our Pastors and everyone in the Pantano family!
Paul & Karyl De Young
At the onset I would like to admit up front that I speak with a degree of bias on the subject of my friend, Glen Elliott.
That being said, I was never more proud of him then after hearing the message this weekend. I have been contributing to this blog with the desire to keep the spirit of this site civil and loving. I like to stimulate thinking and move focus around a bit. And I like to join with others in promoting an atmosphere if respect and love, nothing less than Jesus would want, as I understand Him. But through it all I have been challenged to live by my own words. From time to time as I read from the multitude of comments I have struggled with my reactions. It’s difficult, I think you would agree, to not judge others and keep personal criticism in check. In short, it’s hard to love some of the people who have been contributing.
I believe Glen has been fully aware of the criticisms leveled at our church, our leadership, our direction, our philosophy and our parishioners. And yet he has not had the luxury of taking sides. He has not indulged himself in anger and judgment. He has not taken the easy path of pride and ego and self-righteousness. Instead, he has taken upon himself the pain of his congregation. The polarization and the backbiting. The second-guessing and the harsh judgmentalism of the flock. The questions and doubts. The fears. The emotions.
And this weekend he brought us all back into the fold with sensitivity and sound leadership. Instead of retreating and hunkering down he attacked this issue with love and compassion and responsibility. I believe he demonstrated true shepherding in the Spirit of Christ.
I am proud of him and proud of our church.
Some people will not be satisfied by the events of this last week. Some will continue to hear things that were not said and not hear things that were. Some will still leave. I’m sorry for you, but you need to find the church that suits you. Engage in the Kingdom wherever you go. Go with peace.
(But I’m staying right here!)
Dan Gunther
AMEN Dan!! I left church Saturday night with a smile that just would not leave my face and a little skip in my step.
I love the Lord our God and am so excited to be a part of Pantano.
Well done Glen and Leadership Team.
Dan,
You pretty much nailed everything I was thinking. Thank you.
Glen,
Again, you have challenged me in the just the manner in which you have handled all this — thank you. As I seek to better myself each day and live the life that God would have me live, I look to the leaders of PCC as great examples. With my whole heart, I just want to say thank you. If only my typed words could do the feelings I have some justice…
Dave,
Can’t wait to hear you preach again, I am praying for you man, and even though things got a little cookey this week, it have been so awesome to see everything that has come out of this. Thanks!
I think all I can say is ditto. I think Glen did an amazingly good job from a very unenviable position.
And I also look forward to another sermon from Dave with great anticipation.
I think the only part of this weeks’ message that I found mildly disappointing (but not suprising) was Glen’s statement “The rest of the series will not be as provocative as last week.” It makes sense for very practical and important reasons. But too few sermons are intellectually challenging. I don’t think there should be a “quota” on provocation.
Thanks so much for the reassurances and laying out what the positions of the church and leadership is.
Aaron
I’m proud to be a member of Pantano Church. Last week’s message challenged my thinking. It left me with many questions and confused. After a week of contemplation and blog entires, much prayer and time in the Word, and time asking God to help me with my perspective and lead me to “right thinking”, I “hear” the message in a different light. Dave,I still don’t agree with the Jesus and Mary thing, but it hasn’t shaken my trust in Pantano (or you),and what its direction is…..as Jesus said…..to seek and save the lost. You have blazed an interesting trail!
Dan you said it well. Glenn, thank you for today’s gift of refreshing the truth of who and what we are, Whom we serve, and how the Body works together as one for the good of the whole. Your message was annointed.
God continue to bless and guide the leadership at Pantano. I love all you guys (and gals) as DIFFERENT as you all are!! Your message is that of the Gospel. Your love is that of Christ. Your impact on me and the world around us will stand forever. I’m blessed to have such brothers and sisters in Christ as you.
Peace to all,
Stephanie
P.S. After re-reading my blog I realized you might think that my faith is placed in Pantano and/or any of its pastors…..for the record it is not! My faith is in Christ to lead me to the place where I can be nurished and can grow in Christ. Pantano is the place!!!
For the Drummond family, this has been a defining week in our lives! Not only spiritually, but personally speaking as well. (as some of you know…) I Thank God for you, Pastor Glen! I too heard from your heart and feel so encouraged and honored to have you as my Pastor. What an example of leadership, transparency, Godly character and humbleness….. in the midst of such difficulty.
This week the Holy Spirit has brought some challenging issues to me personally, that I am excited to address.
Thank you Dan for your comments, and I love your sense of humor.
I Love You Pantano!! But, most important of all, I Love You Lord Jesus!
Blessings,
Sarah Drummond
For me it became a “Defining Moment”.
It is one thing to read an abstract statement regarding a belief stance and another to see and hear it in action, Glenn thank you.
Dave’s message became a boiling caldron for the leadership then, converted into a catalysis for growth. For myself, I can affirm faith in Christ even when unable to explain some Biblical mystery.
The reactions to Dave’s words reminds that the human intellect has a way to obstruct and balk, then happily give in to the Holy Spirit ability to renew.
A second observation: when the caldron does boils, look for a nearby Kingdom victory. Now having said these things, I am going try and hold it all together and ponder, “why God brings us the peace that passes all understanding”.
First of all, today’s message was great. I’m not a member of Pantano, but have been attending for several weeks now. Last week’s message left me pondering. I wasn’t hurt or shaken by it, because I am secure in my faith and was quite certain that anything Dave had said was not intended to in any way, shape or form suggest that the Bible was not true. I think he just wanted people to know that it’s okay to be unsure. If we’re honest, we’ve all been unsure at times.
Anyway, I think today Glen did a good job of supporting his friend and leading the church through this tough time. I’m praying for Dave, as I’m sure this has been difficult on him, and for all the leaders and members of Pantano.
Comment:
I thought that Dave did a beautiful job delivering the message last
week. At one point and time in my life I thought it was a sin to be
angry with God or to question Him. Today, I know it’s apart of getting
to know Him and who I am in Him. Questioning the Bible gives me that
opportunity and somewhere in there it does say to quit drinking milk and
move on to the tougher issues. Accepting everything at face value is not
in my opinion faith but ignorance and not knowing how to think for
yourself.
I also think that Pastor Elliot did a wonderful job this morning. I
think that if Christ were walking the face of the earth today He would
be with the “crack whores” and people with AIDS.
I’ve been a member of a church that split and as a result I split and
stayed away for a number of years it lead to drug addiction and worse. I
never want to stray again. I am not afraid of dying if I leave the
church, but of returning to my old lifestyle.
I will not be at Tuesday nights meeting, I have another commitment,
but I will be praying for all those in attendance.
Kim
Greetings brothers and sisters;
My first message at Pantano Christian Church was on the very weekend the leadership was passed from Tim Coop to Glen Elliott. I met both gentlemen for the first time and had no doubt that the church was in good hands. I was excited about the following weeks as each message unfolded. Then I heard “Is the Bible true?” I felt liberated! I am a closet non-literalist; closet because I have found this view unaccepted at church after church. Last weekend, I was overjoyed because I thought that I could at last talk about my views without condemnation. After hearing about the uproar, I feared that I would have to timidly retreat to the closet once again.
Glen Elliott addressed my anxieties with love and strength today. I am grateful for his courage. It is once again my hope that I may express my views and be still regarded as a sister in Christ. I KNOW that the Bible is our Father’s guide to us and the way to understand God and His purposes. I do not regard it as trivial and unrelevant to me. Indeed, I strive to make studying this book a daily part of my life.
As we struggle with this issue, let us remember that each of us sincerely love God and the sacrifices that He made for us. From the comments that I have read, I find that we each seek Him with all our hearts. I rejoice in the dialogue and the support that I see here today.
Hear the Whisper
In a day’s time your mind hears so much, are you hearing one voice above all voices? Or is the busyness of your day, blocking the most important voice of all? The one talking to your heart!
Pray for discernment so that you will learn to recognize his voice. He is speaking to you and can be, heard in many ways. Thoughts, feelings, music, signs ~ nature, reading, prayer and verbal communication from others. Do you hear God’s voice among them? Then follow him with all your heart!
My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27
Spiritual growth is a lost priority. It is viewed by many as unnecessary, we must not wait in the darkness any more. We are the source of light to many, in this darkened world.
God is at the center and in control of our lives. The foundation of life begins with God, so ask yourself where is your focus? Listen for that whisper and hear the word of God, speaking to you.
Thank You Pastor Glenn, I felt Love & Compassion, in the service Today. The Holy Spirit was definitly with us. May we all Hear the whisper of unspoken words, and feelings within our Heart. Our God is Awsome & I am so proud to be a Part of PCC. I give Pastor Dave much Love for stiring within many of us a new found Compassion,for not only reading and hearing the Word of God ~ but feeling the burning desire to have the Word speak to us and through us.
With much Love your
Sister in Christ
I am SO SORRY I missed Dave’s sermon last week. I am always inspired by his unique ways of teaching. Dave is one of the main reasons I enjoy PCC so much. Even though I missed the actual sermon, I have read his notes. NOT ONCE did I doubt his faithfulness. I have read some of the many blogs and all I can say is WOW! Glen’s message today was, as always, very clear. Without being able to ask questions I never would have continued on my journey to have a personal relationship with Jesus. My journey continues, and I plan to continue my journey by asking my questions at one of the few places I feel safe . . . Pantano, I LOVE YOU!
Glen, I have nothing profound to add, just my thanks for your clarity in a message delivered with humility, love, honesty, firmness and strength.
One thing I think may have been overlooked in all of this and one which I pray gives strength and encouragement not only to the pastors but also to the Body of Christ that makes up Pantano Christian Church is this: we are not a dead church! The 300 plus blogs on last week’s message shows that we are a passionate people. Maybe we do have differing views on literal versus non-literal. But we are passionate about our God and in our search for Him. How sad it would be if we were a building full of people who all heard the same message, interpreted it in the same way and never had cause to doubt, dispute or discuss anything we heard. Jesus came to give us life and we at Pantano are alive! I believe that Pantano is a safe forum for discussion and my heart hurts for those who do not. But none of us can afford to get so caught up in our own viewpoint that we miss the message of love and forgiveness that was always paramount in any of Jesus’ messages to us.
Glen delivered his message yesterday with courage, taking responsibility for the hurt that some of the members felt. I pray that we all have the same courage to look into our hearts and see what is prompting us to feel and respond the way that we do and then come together as the Body of Christ and do whatever is needed to heal the rifts that there may be between us.
Jesus said, “Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God and trust also in me. There is more than enough room in my Father’s home.†John 14:1-2
Let’s find the room in our hearts to incorporate other views and concepts without becoming offended and striking out at one another. We must always act in a way that brings glory to our God, who, thankfully, shows us mercy at all times.
Glenn and Guys,
You know, after yesterday’s very apologetic sermon. I talked with my husband and 17 year old daughter about why people had gotten so offended by what Dave had preached. I for one, was not offended at all. In fact I was very impressed by his views.
My grandfather helped start this church before it was even a piece of land up on the hill. It has been my home ever since. While I was reading these “blogs” I couldn’t help but wonder what my grandfather would have thought to see this church now as opposed to way back then. (Also, Ed Towne entered my mind) I believe that they would be sooooo proud of you all. You keep us on our toes and make us feel safe to ask the hard questions. I have to admit that there has been that “What if there’s no God?” thought that has gone through my mind. But if you have faith and know that God IS EVERYTHING then isn’t it just Satans little way of messing with your mind?
I beleive God is my Father and as his children, are we not allowed to ask him questions, get angry with him, and still no that we’re safe in his love? Even mortal fathers put up with that with their children, because it is an undying love. Thank you for letting me put in my two cents. I will always follow and love the body of Christ I belong to, and the men God has appointed to lead us in it.
Anne
Glen,
I’ve heard every message regarding this last series. I have to say that this is the 1st church where I never felt condemned, shameful or a sinner. I’ve attended other churches before attending Pantano and I have to say that this is the best place I could have ever been lead too. I’ve attended other places where “tithing and guilt of not tithing†was preached more than the word of God. I’ve heard sermons (not Pantano) that you get one chance to be saved and that’s it…. Finished.. No second, third chances with God. I’ve heard sermons that preached guilt and shame over and over. Pantano is the 1st place where I found LOVE…. Unconditional love no matter what I’ve done or what I’m going through.
I love this church and nothing will ever keep me from this place that I’ve found my home away from home.
My Our Mighty Lord Bless Pantano Christian Church, all it’s Pastors, Elders, Team Leaders, Coordinators and anyone I might of forgot of. This Church has been a blessing in our life and I would never turn my back to a place who accepted me and my husband with open arms.
I pray and ask this in my Lord’s Holy and Mighty name, Jesus Christ… Amen
Anamarie & Gilbert Merino
After reading some of the comments that we’re left by other member’s of Pantano regarding the message; Is the Bible True? I went back to April 28th weekend message, by Pastor Dave White and listened to it a few more times.
Here is what I feel about the message;
1. I feel and believe that we all have our OWN personal relationship with God. Not one of us walks the same path. We might be all headed the same direction…. Life after death, but I feel that not everyone has the same relationship with our Lord. It’s a personal relationship. Just as each one of us has their own personal relationships with people in our own life.
2. I will confess, I also don’t read the bible every single day…. Or that often, but I am in the word of God daily. I read other books, written by anointed men and women, who preach and teach the word of God and explain some answers to my tough “why†questions.
3. I also feel and believe that your best friend can be your worse enemy. I have experienced that 1st hand. So, I know that this can be true for most people.
4. This series has allowed me to answer all those questions that come flying at me from my unbelieving family members. Who think the bible is just fiction and so forth. This series has actually strengthened my faith in my Lord and my walk with God. It has put into perspective the truth and the meanings behind the stores of the bible.
And as Pastor Dave said in his April 28th message, what if? What if there was no God? What if Jesus was just another prophet? What if he was just another “nice†guy? What if there is no life after death? What if????…… Well…. This question came out the mouth of my dad… a non believer. I told him…. It doesn’t matter…. I’m not willing to take that chance and live my life in sin and die forever. I choose to put “all my chips on Jesusâ€. I’ve seen his miracles… I’ve witness his movement in my home, plus as it was said in an earlier message in this series… I told my Dad… “It takes as much faith to believe that it’s not true and all just a bunch of fictional stories, as it takes as much faith to believe that IT IS the word of God and Jesus Christ died and rose again so we could liveâ€.
After this comment to my Dad… He had no response. I was honest with my Dad too… I don’t know why bad things happen to good people… I don’t know why our family is struggling? I can’t answer all your questions Dad, but the bible can answer some of yours, as the word of God has answered some of mine.
I choose today to live my life for Christ. I choose today to follow his ways. I’ve never been happier regardless of our struggles. His burden is easy and His yoke is light…… Amen to that!!
Anamarie Merino
I had already left my comment on last weeks blog re: this weeks sermon because I was too impatient to wait for Sunday! :)
Now my question is, is this forum just for commenting on the sermon, or is it a place that we could do a little of our life together, encouraging each other in the faith?
So, for me I suppose the “good news” is that when I was hurt, I struggled, and searched out God in prayer, and in the scriptures, but the “bad news” was how VERY quickly I became complacent. Today I had set my Bible on the Table intending to reread Romans 12-15. So far, all day long, there wasn’t the urgency, I needed to get the dishes done, and laundry, and make phone calls and fix meals. When Al had spoken to how he reads the comments personally to him, mine is when Jesus is talking to Martha who is complaining that she has so much to do, and Mary isn’t helping. I hear Jesus’s loving and compassionate voice say to me down thru the ages (instead of “Martha”) “Kathy, Kathy, you are so busy with so many things, but Mary has chosen the better course” (okay, it was paraphrased a bit because I couldn’t find the exact quote, but you get the picure! )
So, I think I will get off this blog now and go read Romans 12-15, and search God.
Kathy,
Here is a poem I wrote that is about that very thing—
CHOICES
I pause at the edge of my unmade bed,
ignoring the distraction of the untidy covers.
If I tend to the bedding first,
other little chores will take its place,
clamoring to be done till the day presses in, and this opportunity of solitude with You
disappears with the clutter I am trying to eliminate.
I need to kneel here instead.
Together we’ll straighten the covers of my mind,
tucking the corners between verses and prayer.
Only then will the day hold me close to You,
wrapped in the blanket of Your Love.
Patti
Patti- I read your poem a couple of times now, each time I like it better. It’s beautiful.
Kathy,
Thank you! I yearn for the day when my desire to spend time with Him outweighs ANYTHING that pulls me away….
your words today reminded me of my struggle to do just that.
I will pray for your time this week to include lots of living with Romans 12-15 – pray for me, too!
Patti
Glen,
As I listened to you today (second service), I was captivated by your heart and convictions concerning this church body. Never before in my life have I been a part of something so big and so powerful as the church I am a part of now and the leadership that is at the helm. I couldn’t be more proud of our leadership than I was today. Thank you for giving us the freedom to ask questions and challenging us to “engage our faith†to a degree we have not seen for a long time. A “defining moment†seems like such an understatement. Without question, my faith has been strengthened throughout this last week.
Michael
Kathy,
Thanks for asking about what this “blog” or comment area is for. I’ll let you in on some of our plans….
The comment fields in the Weekend Messages blog are a great place to leave notes or thoughts on that weeks message. They are not the best (as we can all see) for on-going topical conversation.
We (your friendly PCC Pathway/Website) team are planning to provide a complete forum on this site. The PCC forum will allow us to have topical conversations and on-going discussions through which we can encourage, challenge and even debate each other.
In fact I would like to start an on-line Life Group using this new tool. We would have Bible Study of sorts on-line and get together monthly or so for fun and serving activities. If your interested in joining let me know – email hidden; JavaScript is required
Bill.
Patti- Thanx, I will!
Bill- I did send your e-mail like you asked, but I wanted my response to be on this blog too.
I am limited to the life groups that I can attend because I work evenings. I would love to have an on-line life group/Bible study.
I found myself wanting to meet the several of the people that blogged last week.
I have been a believer for 37 years, many of them living with doubt and questions. Glen’s “Defining Moment” was the most sincere, transparent, cohesive message I’ve heard from a pulpit period. Thank you God for your grace and your Son Jesus. Thank you Glen for your sincerity and transparency. Thank you Dave for your courage. Thank you PCC or your fellowship. The body IS made up of many parts.
Glen -
Thank you so much for your servant’s heart and your love for the church. I could really feel God working through you this last weekend. I personally think we tend to grow more when we stretch a little and this last week we stretched a lot. Thanks for pulling us all back together!!!!
I am amazed how God works his timing. Your wonderful message was included on the weekend with all the children singing in church and it was also Connect Weekend. I was so inspired by all that transpired that God moved me to stretch a little and sign-up for a couple of new ministries.
To God all the glory!!
I like the idea of an on-line Bible study, also. I like it a lot.
I recently bought roughly 8-10 books, or so, by Chuck Swindoll, all Bible studies or companion study guides. They’re still in a box. I really want to do them, but . . . they’re still in a box. Maybe I could participate in the study you are planning.
Glen,
You recently said something that triggered a memory for me, out of what I call my “Episcopal phase.” My pastor there introduced me to the concept of collective faith, when he commented that, while most individuals might have a problem with one part or another of the Nicene Creed (which we read frequently in the services), we together believed the whole thing was true.
In all of my life before that time, I had never heard of that, but I believe the concept of collective faith operates in any church. Maybe a lot of other people have also missed out on the concept. That could create some angst when hit with an acute awareness that–gosh!–we don’t all believe *exactly* the same way! We have differences!
Oh–I also was reminded in listening to you of something else I heard a long time ago: that the Chinese character for “crisis” consists of the character for danger and the character for opportunity. I don’t know if that’s true, but I think it’s neat!
A friend of mine came to church with me on Saturday night. She suggested that perhaps a similar sermon (without the preceding drama) would be good on an annual basis. To restate who we are, what we believe, and what our purpose is.
Vicki- trying to wrap my mind around the concept of collective faith. I don’t think I’ve heard of it before either.
First I want to thank Dave for the message he gave us. Any message that challanges me to think about the Bible, it’s meaning and it’s substance is a good message. I also believe that we are all in different stages of our faith and to condem someone for not having the same level of faith as I do, is not something Jesus would approve of. We say we are a church that is open to all but when something different appears, some of us want to close the door and not be so open.
To all those who condemed Dave, I hope you will read Romans 14:1. If you thought Dave’s faith is weak, Romans 14:1 is how you should have handled it. And you need to, as Glen stated, “make it right.”
To Glen I say thank you very much for your message Sunday, It could have not been handled any better. We truly have a spirit filled, God loving and standing firm teaching team at PCC.
And Bill, feel free to fix any spelling
etc. mistakes I made! :)
Kathy,
I just went back to last week’s thread to see what was what and nearly cheered aloud at your post of this morning. Right on, woman!
:)
Wow, Dave White’s message even associated with a dangerous movement…
Read more below…
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?m=20070508
Everything Must Change! says Brian McLaren
Source: Lighthouse Trails
From spiritual formation to the Eucharist to a paradigm shift, this tour has it all.
The presenters of the Everything Must Change Tour, scheduled for 2008, are proclaiming that a Deep Shift is taking place, and they are encouraging seekers to become a part of it. In honor of Brian McLaren’s upcoming new release, Everything Must Change (Fall 2007, Thomas Nelson), the tour will present McLaren to eleven cities throughout the U.S. The question Deep Shift asks is, “What does it mean, in today’s world, to be a follower of God in the way of Jesus?”
To better understand what McLaren and the other Deep Shift Guides mean by “way of Jesus,” we must have some understanding of the spiritual formation movement. Roger Oakland explains:
Spiritual formation is based upon experiences promoted by desert monks and Roman Catholic mystics; these mystics encourage the use of rituals and practices that if performed will bring the practitioner closer to God (or enable him to enter God’s presence). The premise is that if one goes into the silence or sacred space, then the mind is emptied of distractions, and the voice of God can be heard and personal transformation will take place. In truth, these hypnotic, mantric style practices bring one into altered states of consciousness, and rather than the believer being changed by the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the person of Jesus Christ, he is supposedly changed (transformed) by entering this altered realm.
While proponents of spiritual formation (like Richard Foster) say these methods show that the Holy Spirit is doing something new to refresh Christianity, sadly these methods leave the practitioner duped and deceived by the workings of a counterfeit Holy Spirit.
And thus the term “way of Jesus” is more fitting than the term Christian (to leaders of the emergent paradigm shift) because to be a true Christian, Jesus lives inside and He is Lord and Savior over all. But to follow McLaren’s “way of Jesus” means you must only see him as a model and an example and not necessarily the only way to salvation. Actually, we must be so bold in this article to take it to the extreme that it really is. To follow this “way of Jesus” as McLaren and other New Age prophets like him declare means the atonement (Christ’s shed blood for our sins) must be kicked in the mud, and the Bible must be shattered and tossed as debris. Strong you say … not near enough. And it’s time to say so, because this Deep Shift will take place according to Scripture. But Scripture calls it what it truly is … a great falling away where doctrines of demons seduce and delude, and where Satan will deceive the whole world (Revelation 12:9 – see A Time of Departing).
On the atonement, Brian McLaren sees it as “false advertising for God.” His cohorts agree with him that God would be barbaric to send His Son to a violent death (see atonement article below). Jesus’ going to the cross was an example of servanthood, but that is all. No blood necessary. In fact, the idea of spilt blood is called vile by some.1
On the Word of God, emergent teachers condemn those who take the Bible literally and call such people legalistic fundamentalists who are the cause of all the ills of the earth. Dan Kimball in his new book, They Like Jesus But Not the Church insists (p. 19) that “those who are rejecting faith in Jesus” do so because of their views of Christians and the church. But he makes it clear throughout the book that these distorted views are not the fault of the unbeliever but are the fault of Christians, but not all Christians, just those fundamentalist ones who take the Bible literally.2
A perfect example of this “way of Jesus” that tosses the authority of the Word of God to the wind is in an article by Pastor Dave White of Pantano Christian Church in Arizona. In White’s sermon titled “Is the Bible True?”3, White states:
One day I mustered the courage to actually ask myself out loud, “Is the entire Bible to be read primarily as literal and factual or could at least parts of it be read as metaphorical stories that illustrate truth?” Could some of the Bible not be literally and factually true but be PROFOUNDLY TURE [sic]? I want to make it clear that some of you here might just say, “NO WAY” to that question. If you do, that is OK with me. I am not trying to get you to believe that some of the Bible may not be factual. My point is that in my own journey considering that possibility and confronting it has been revolutionary to my faith in both God and the Bible.
While there is probably not a Christian on earth that hasn’t at some time had doubts and questions, White is taking his doubts to a new level. Now, when he says that some of the Bible is not to be taken literally but rather metaphorically, he isn’t just referring to the parables of Jesus. He includes the story of Adam and Eve and original sin in the Garden of Eden, the story of Job, and the story of the prophet Jonah. White goes on to say that “No where does inspiration [of God's Word] seem to be connected with the idea of guaranteeing the facts” (p. 2), and “some of the passages that can seem challenging if you think of them as literally factual and see how they read as stories that are profoundly true but not literally true” (p. 3). White sums it up by saying that even if the Bible is not all true, he would
“still be a follower of Jesus! Why? Because the way of Jesus – loving God and loving your neighbor – has proven to me to be life I like living. I believe I will enjoy the richest and most satisfying life possible by following in the way of Jesus and modeling my life after Him.
In the Pantano Christian Church’s Spiritual Formation program, they offer “tools” in solitude, which include fighting “through all the internal and external distractions by repeating a simple prayer like ‘Jesus, I belong to you,’ or ‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me,’” and reading contemplative author Fil Anderson’s Running on Empty: Contemplative Spirituality for Overachievers who incidentally quotes and speaks highly of Thomas Merton in his book. It makes sense that Pantano C.C. would be promoting contemplative spirituality as well as downplaying the authority of Scripture. Such downplaying is a product of deep contemplative meditation that Anderson discusses in his book.
Roger Oakland of Understand the Times believes that the emerging church is a bridge between evangelical Christianity and Rome (Catholicism). The fact that there will be a Eucharist service at the Everything Must Change tour is significant and is another indication of the spiritual deception that many Christians are falling prey to.4
You [Jesus] are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood … Worthy is the Lamb who was slain. (Revelation 5: 9 & 12)
Glen, My wife and I were out of town for your message but listend to it thru the PC, GREAT JOB!!!!
Glen,
This morning, I was reading the chapters you asked us to read last service. I can definitely see how very relevant these chapters are to our church today. Thanks. :)
I also want to thank you because while I have read and studied Romans several times, a passage really jump out today that I never seemed to notice like I have today:
Romans 15:20-21
It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. Rather, as it is written: “Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.”
When I read these verses today, I really and truly saw into Paul’s heart unlike I have before. He loved his friends and brothers, but he often had to forsake seeing them because it was his passion and ambition to see the Kingdom of God brought to the Ends of the Earth.
We can read stuff a thousand times and get something new out of it each time, depending on where Spirit takes us. I love these verses though. You can truly see the heart of God in Paul and how he has this passion to see EVERYONE come to know Christ’s name. He is probably the most hardcore church planter ever!
Anyway, I am glad to be a part of a church that shares this vision with Paul in so many ways.
Just some random Bible study thoughts… :)
Esteban
Rev 3:15-17
I know your works and what you are doing. You are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! But because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich. I have prospered and grown wealthy and you do not realize and understand that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.
Things were said in the April 30 sermon that your senior pastor has basically excused by saying that those of us who heard the sermon misinterpreted and misunderstood the points made. In other words, we didnt reallly mean it that way. I have asked several times what Mr. White’s credentials are without response. No one seems to know or care how he has come about being able to lead a flock of believers into his false assurances. Obviously, the only unforgiveable sin is denial of the Holy Spirit so all questions of the Bible should be allowed and addressed by the teachers in our faith (those who are trained and are provided this gift by the Holy Spirit). However, for a pastor to say the things that were said during this service, he should acknowledge his mistake and further sermons that he is allowed to present should be closely monitored. He is a loose cannon. I told myself to not post any more comments…but, it occurs to me that instead of reading the sermon notes over and over again as some of you appear to be doing, you should be reading your Bible and BELIEVING IT 100%. I have not seen that your pastor has responded to any of these comments from anyone, but can someone please provide any credentials that Dave White has (other than he went to a Christian college, unnamed)
Maybe you guys should read the Statement of Faith at El Camino Baptist Church…(I am not a member, just looking for a church) “The members of El Camino unanimously affirm our committment to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, God incarnate, by obeying his message to us: The Bible. We are convinced that the Bible is the perfect word of God to man, that it contains no errors, and it will never lead us astray” CAN I GET AN AMEN????
Lora, did you attend this weekend’s service at PCC? I am curious to hear your opinion of it.
Thanks,
Lisa
“Therefore,as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.” Col. 3:12-14.
Lora W.- it is interesting the way you used Rev. 3:15-17. I would certainly not call Pantano luke-warm. It is true that we have not responded to your begging for credentials. I don’t know them- I have seen Jesus in Dave’s life with humility and power. I happen to not agree with him right now, but I would never doubt his authenticity as a follower of Christ. I understand that leaders are called to a higher standard, and I trust the leadership to do what needs done.
It surprised me that you did not hear Glen state, –
“. I believe the Bible is true. Period. It is the foundation of our faith.
. . . We believe in and are committed with our whole being to . . . The Bible as God’s primary message or word to us, a guide for living and our TRUSTWORTHY AND FINAL AUTHORITY (2 Tim 3:16-17) (capitals mine for emphasis).
Glen’s sermon was very healing and reconciling. If you expected a roasting, well, we are very aware of how sinful and in need of God’s grace and mercy we all are. I hope we will always extend God’s love to those that have fallen short. I accept that somehow the communication didn’t happen for you and me, but Glen acknowledged, took responsiblity for, apologized with his whole heart and being. And then took the time to state with passion what we do believe and stand for. I am so sorry that that wasn’t enough for you.
Why, may I ask, was it not Mr. White himself that was the one to apologize? I heard the message over your website. I cannot say that I would be able to go back to your church and not because I am not willing or able to forgive or to show compassion. I am afraid, quite frankly.
As far as my opinion of the sermon this week it was a cop out. I think that a better position would have been to denounce the sermon in its entirity. He put the blame basically on us for our “misunderstanding”. I can tell you I heard what Mr. White said and I did not misunderstand anything. I do not expect a “roasting” as you have said, but I do expect the leadership of a church to take the responsibility for monitoring its staff and their communication to their congregation.
Lora,
Thank you for your response. I think it’s truly wonderful that two people (you and I) can hear different things from the same message. My supposition is that our life experience, differing spiritual journeys, and past church experiences make each of us very unique. God is so creative to not have us all think, feel and be the same! And I really do celebrate that. From the depths of my heart, I truly wish you the best in finding a church home where you can feel at home and spiritually fulfilled in your walk with Christ.
Lisa
I have a suggestion that I think might take the quality of this web log up a notch. You don’t have to do this, but let’s think about it and see if we can bring some of the Spirit back to this forum.
My suggestion is to have each and every one of us, before we post something, have an accountability partner or friend go over it and check it for content. Not only will this help in finding grammatical errors, but possible doctrinal, spiritual and theological errors as well.
I know this is not feasible for some, but if possible, it might help us out a bit. It gives a “checks and balance†feature.
Dan
Lora W.- I can see that our going back and forth at this site probably isn’t “edifying for the body of Christ”. I have no agenda to change your mind, but if you would like to talk about it, I would be happy to meet you for coffee, lunch, or whatever you would like. I take the Bible literally, and if Dave’s sermon a week and a half ago had been my first week at Pantano, I would not have been back either.
Dan G.- I’d like to apologize if you found me argumentative. I do not have anyone to run my comments thru, please tell me clearly if you think I am out of line.
Gosh, no, Kathy! I really wasn’t pointing fingers at anybody. I mostly suggested it as something that would prevent us (me,too!) from knee-jerk reactions to posts. I just got the feeling that many of us are posting without carefully thinking over what we are really saying. I think you’re doing just fine, Kathy. But it’s not my place to judge what other’s have to say. :-)
dan
Lora W. Thanks for your comments. I just wanted to assure you that there are others who believe as you do, including myself and my family. Thanks.
I have been quietly sitting back and watching all the hooplah going on the last couple of weeks—time for me to jump in. My family was out of town the week of Dave’s sermon, but I listened to the podcast and read each of the blogs (well, at least the first hundred or so). My heart was grieved for Dave and our Pantano family with the harshness of some of the comments. I have to admit that I audibly “gasped†when I first heard some of Dave’s comments, but then I remembered something my mom always said—“consider the sourceâ€â€”so I did.
The first “source†was Dave White, an incredible man of God whom I have had the extreme pleasure in getting to know over the last several years. Dave may be unorthodox in his presentation (love the shirts Dave!), but his heart is all about God and seeking Him. I have often longed for the depth of faith that I have found in Dave White. A man who sees prayer as a continual conversation with God, fluid, organic and natural—I wish I prayed like that. I know it is just my humble opinion and many of you have not had the opportunity to get to know Dave, but I wholeheartedly believe that he is qualified to lead our congregation.
The second “source†as I see it, is Pantano (specifically our Pastoral team and the Elders). Again, I went back to what I know of these people and how I have seen God working, anointing and blessing our church. I have been a member of PCC since 1995 and have seen our church go through many changes: the expansion of our campus facilities, the sending out of Pastors Tim Brock and Steve Shaw to lead their own churches, the growth of children’s ministry, the launching of Vail Christian Church, and the powerful impact of Serve Tucson and Celebrate Recovery, not to mention our international missions.
These things would not have been possible with out God being a part of every detail. Are we spreading our selves too thin? I think not. My best friend once told me that God doesn’t divide love, he multiplies it. If God is doing the sending, He will make it happen. I have always felt that PCC was specially anointed to minister to our whole community not just those who warm the pews on Saturday or Sunday. Our church is about being Christ’s church, His hands and feet in our world—truly living out our mission statement of “Loving people to Jesusâ€.
I think it would be a tragedy if we as a congregation were to allow Satan to undermine the work that God has for us by being distracted and arguing with each other. I think that Pastor Glen did an amazing job of clarifying our beliefs as a church body and I am proud to serve Jesus here.
Love in Christ,
Ericka Balli
GriefShare Leader
Erika said: “I think that Pastor Glen did an amazing job of clarifying our beliefs as a church body and I am proud to serve Jesus here.”
Me, too.
I am a Tucson resident, who has been to Pantano several times, but really, I don’t have a church that I attend regularly.
For a few weeks now, I have been engaged in an online blog: “Mormonism, Is it part of Christianity?” There are some LDS members, and some Christians and one terribly lost atheist.
One of the LDS members stated that the Bible doesn’t matter because there were a bunch of guys who voted on which pieces to use and which not to use. To which I defended that it is the Word of God and how much we value what “we” say, how much more would God value what He says, somuchso that I believe He supernaturally protected His Word to be the perfect living Word of God.
So, then another of the LDS members, frustrated with defending the many many descrepancies of the Book of Mormon, finally deflected by challenging us to defend the accuracy and authority of the Bible. He stated, “If proof is what you need to believe in the Book of Mormon, then prove your Bible is true”. Then he completed his comment by retorting, “GOOD LUCK”.
Other comments were made like ….”You don’t ACTUALLY believe there was a big flood do you?” And, “You don’t REALLY think that Adam was the ACTUAL first man, do you?” And, I don’t even want to get into the “How are you sure God is a man?” discussion.
Well, as a Christian of only 6 years, I can state that I know many of the teachings of the Bible, but I oftentimes can’t remember specific passages. So, I went in search of some commentary that could assist me in pinpointing my thoughts into actual quotes.
What did I find? “Is the Bible True?” on the Pantano Christian webpage. How lucky could I be? Just what I needed—then again, maybe not.
Seriously, I kept waiting for a punch line. I was thinking the speaker was doing a role reversal thing and near the end he would say: Psych—I was playing devil’s advocate to challenge your belief in the Bible….now this is really what I think. I was blown away when that didn’t happen.
Absolutely shocked at what I was hearing, I decided to listen to the next week’s lesson as the prior lesson seemed foreign to what I had experienced on occasional visits to Pantano, or the Pantano website.
I listened to this “Defining Moment” lesson and I was encouraged by the pastor’s heart. His voice indicated that he was definitely impacted by the fallout of the previous week’s message. I was encouraged that the intent of the pastor was to show that all people have doubts, and his need for a “safe place” to express those doubts.
But, as he continued to consistently use the words “safe place”, I realized that this concept does seem to pander to the masses of “Me-ism”. The term itself seems like something Joel Osteen or Rick Warren or a host of other “prosperity/feel good” pastors might come up with. These guys may be rich, yes, but enriching, I am not so sure.
Even more disturbing than that is this particular “Defining Moment” message was prefaced by an elder who stated that the pastoral staff has to get their messages approved. Did the elders read one of the “church growth” books and decide that this “safe place” concept needed to be introduced at Pantano? Isn’t seeking a one-on-one walk with God enough; that now Pantano has to pander to draw in the crowds?
So, my concern in returning to what sounds like a “just do what feels good” “prosperity” or “new age” type of church, is that my soul that hungers for the Word of God, might be starved, by this “feel good” programing. Effective for making me want to “give myself a hug” but not really good for spreading the message of the gospel, which the Bible (if you believe it) says we are all assigned to do.
And, the timing of my listening to this lesson made me feel like, not only do I have to defend the Bible for non-believers, but now also for Christians? How would you expect your flock to defend the Bible to non-believers, if you are preaching that you question of it yourself?
“Safe place”, but safe for who?