This has been a rough week – to say the least. Last weekend’s message has created a huge response with a wide range of emotions and thoughts. I’ve seen and heard intense pain, hurt, frustration and even confusion. I’ve heard from people deeply grateful to be a part of a church like ours. I’ve heard questions wondering if we’ve driven people from God and stories of people being drawn to God. I’ve experienced polar opposite responses – we are a diverse church. As I write this the web blog-comments has 135 comments (and more by the time you get this).
I have read every email and blog post, though I’ll admit at times I’m not sure I’m able to process or comprehend everything. I have met with and had very open, frank and unfiltered conversations with the Elders, Leadership Team, Teaching Team and with the entire staff. There has also been significant prayer with all of these groups. I have personally spent time fasting (some of which has honestly not been by choice), praying and reading God’s Word. I’m trying to listen well.
As I had previously posted on the web blog, Dave Drummond (Lead Elder) and I will be presenting the message this weekend in response to last weekend. The message was to be delivered by Roger Blumenthal titled: Is the Church Relevant?” Roger graciously gave up his teaching slot. It is a great message that we need to hear sometime. While I won’t use that title, my message in a very interesting way does address that question. My title will be “A Defining Moment.”
Last week’s message, I believe, has brought to a boil something that must have been simmering for a while. That’s why I believe this is a defining moment. I will, in the confines of a short message, attempt to address the issues at hand and maybe more importantly clarify who we are as a church and where we are going.
Most of you know me well. I’m not a spin doctor or “political” in my approach. I have committed to Jesus that I will seek to be open, honest and transparent within respectable limits as I lead. (You don’t want to know my every sin and I won’t burden you with that – that is my burden that I give to God.) I will do my best to address the core issues we face as a church.
And pray! Please continue to pray for our church and your leaders. Please come prayerfully this weekend.
Facing a defining moment together,
Glen
Thanks Glenn. I look forward to the message next Sunday.
Hi Glen!
Just letting you know that you have my prayers as you “define the moment”. While we don’t have the occasion to see each other much these days (Remember monthly get togethers for forming the Tucson Mission Network?)you and I have a long history of pursuing the heart of God for Tucson and the world. Let’s never allow Satan to distract us from our focus in John 17 and Titus 2.
Love you! Blessings!
Stu
Dear Glen and our esteemed elders:
It is now Friday and I’ve had a lot of time to contemplate on last weekend’s message. We had guests from Washington with us for the first time and I was so disappointed in the message. I was expecting it to be inviting to our friends and instead it was shockingly without any belief, at best. Our guests didn’t say anything at all about the message and neither Jim nor I brought it up either. We didn’t know what to say. I’m so glad there was a baptism after. It seemed to clear the air and bring the Spirit back. I don’t understand why Dave was “allowed” to continue the message for the remainder of the weekend.
Unfortunately we won’t be at services this weekend. We have a commitment out of town. We will continue to be in prayer and look to the website after our return.
We love this group we call our church and don’t want harm to come. I pray that Pantano will be stronger when “she” comes out the other side.
Blessings, Penny
Hi Glen:
You know my thoughts and prayers are with you during this “defining moment”.
As you know, I have been at Pantano for over 14 years. The last 3-4 years have felt a little odd.
I can remember times when people would come up front and share their stories of victory in Jesus to the church. People would be introduced as members and we would encourage and welcome them. From time to time we would all lock hands as we sang a praise song. People would be seen in groups praying all over campus and nearly everyone carried and opened a Bible on a regular basis. I miss hearing the sound of the Bible pages turning during the message. I remember the polished choir and the awesome productions and all the people who came to Jesus through those productions. I remember the bold preaching that taught and corrected.
As we have talked about in the past, please do not forget what I like to call the four pillars of the church as outlined in the book of Acts, teaching the Word, breaking of bread, prayer, and fellowship.
Movements come and movements go but these four pillars will always stand strong.
It is my prayer that we stick to these four pillars as we “define this moment”.
Dear Glen,
After reading last weekend’s message on the website, I better understand what Dave was trying to say. I’m sorry to say that is not what I got from the message in person. I have Dave in my prayers because he must feel terrible to have caused so much uproar. When I left the Saturday PM service, I was grieved in my spirit and very disappointed in the message. I wish he had finished it with a strong reaffirmation of faith that God is true and His Word is absolutely trustworthy. It seemed like he didn’t really know how to finish and just sort of stopped and relied on the communion service to take care of it.
My own faith does not depend on anyone else’s opinion about the reliability of the Bible. As a Christian for over seventy years and a having studied the Word formally for eight years at LIFE Bible College, (B.Th.)(Foursquare) and Azusa Pacific University(M.A.Rel.) , I have long ago settled any such questions in my own mind. I believe in the infallibiity of the Word of God. My concern is for those who are weak in the faith as Paul said we should be careful that we do not cause other, weaker, brothers to stumble. It is coounter-productive to encourage doubt. There are already plenty enemies of the Gospel and of our souls out there to cause doubt and unbelief. We need to be encouraged to trust implicitly in God’s Word at every possible opportunity. I will keep you and Dave Drummond in my prayers for Saturday and Sunday’s “damage control” efforts.
May God bless Pantano Christian Church and all the dear ones God has brought there.
Glen -
As one who totally got what Dave was talking about the first time (and even after reading it again), I just want to let you know that even though this is not a “defining moment” for myself (or my family) I believe it is a “defining moment” for our church. I trust the Lord put you here for a time like this and will be praying for you this weekend.
I agree (as I put in other blog) that 1st Corinthians 12:25-26 is profound in this instance. We don’t need a schism in the church and as one of us suffers, we all suffer together.
May God Bless You this weekend.
Your Brother in Christ,
Jim McKean
Hi, Glen,
You probably won’t see this before the service this evening, but just know that I, too, am in prayer that God will bind us all together. I don’t know how you are defining the moment, but I trust your heart, your integrity, and your openness to God to lead you as you lead us. When you say each group you have met with has spent time in prayer, I believe you, absolutely. And I believe your prayers have been fervent and your heart open.
I think you guys might have been caught a little off guard with some of what we’ve all had to say, from any point of view. If so, that speaks of our failure (including mine) to have made sure you know what we wanted from our pastors. What you do with it all remains to be seen, but I intend to stick around. There’s too much important work to be done, Pantano is on the move to get it done, and I want to be a part of it.
God bless you, Tim, Dave, Roger, the elders, and everyone else!
Vicki
Glen,
As I listened to you today (second service), I was captivated by your heart and convictions concerning this church body. Never before in my life have I been a part of something so big and so powerful as the church I am a part of now and the leadership that is at the helm. I couldn’t be more proud of our leadership than I was today. Thank you for giving us the freedom to ask questions and challenging us to “engage our faith” to a degree we have not seen for a long time. A “defining moment” seems like such an understatement. Without question, my faith has been strengthened throughout this last week.
Michael
I am a Tucson resident, who has been to Pantano several times, but really, I don’t have a church that I attend regularly.
For a few weeks now, I have been engaged in an online blog: “Mormonism, Is it part of Christianity?” There are some LDS members, and some Christians and one terribly lost atheist.
One of the LDS members stated that the Bible doesn’t matter because there were a bunch of guys who voted on which pieces to use and which not to use. To which I defended that it is the Word of God and how much we value what “we” say, how much more would God value what He says, somuchso that I believe He supernaturally protected His Word to be the perfect living Word of God.
So, then another of the LDS members, frustrated with defending the many many descrepancies of the Book of Mormon, finally deflected by challenging us to defend the accuracy and authority of the Bible. He stated, “If proof is what you need to believe in the Book of Mormon, then prove your Bible is true”. Then he completed his comment by retorting, “GOOD LUCK”.
Other comments were made like ….”You don’t ACTUALLY believe there was a big flood do you?” And, “You don’t REALLY think that Adam was the ACTUAL first man, do you?” And, I don’t even want to get into the “How are you sure God is a man?” discussion.
Well, as a Christian of only 6 years, I can state that I know many of the teachings of the Bible, but I oftentimes can’t remember specific passages. So, I went in search of some commentary that could assist me in pinpointing my thoughts into actual quotes.
What did I find? “Is the Bible True?” on the Pantano Christian webpage. How lucky could I be? Just what I needed—then again, maybe not.
Seriously, I kept waiting for a punch line. I was thinking the speaker was doing a role reversal thing and near the end he would say: Psych—I was playing devil’s advocate to challenge your belief in the Bible….now this is really what I think. I was blown away when that didn’t happen.
Absolutely shocked at what I was hearing, I decided to listen to the next week’s lesson as the prior lesson seemed foreign to what I had experienced on occasional visits to Pantano, or the Pantano website.
I listened to this “Defining Moment” lesson and I was encouraged by the pastor’s heart. His voice indicated that he was definitely impacted by the fallout of the previous week’s message. I was encouraged that the intent of the pastor was to show that all people have doubts, and his need for a “safe place” to express those doubts.
But, as he continued to consistently use the words “safe place”, I realized that this concept does seem to pander to the masses of “Me-ism”. The term itself seems like something Joel Osteen or Rick Warren or a host of other “prosperity/feel good” pastors might come up with. These guys may be rich, yes, but enriching, I am not so sure.
Even more disturbing than that is this particular “Defining Moment” message was prefaced by an elder who stated that the pastoral staff has to get their messages approved. Did the elders read one of the “church growth” books and decide that this “safe place” concept needed to be introduced at Pantano? Isn’t seeking a one-on-one walk with God enough; that now Pantano has to pander to draw in the crowds?
So, my concern in returning to what sounds like a “just do what feels good” “prosperity” or “new age” type of church, is that my soul that hungers for the Word of God, might be starved, by this “feel good” programing. Effective for making me want to “give myself a hug” but not really good for spreading the message of the gospel, which the Bible (if you believe it) says we are all assigned to do.
And, the timing of my listening to this lesson made me feel like, not only do I have to defend the Bible for non-believers, but now also for Christians? How would you expect your flock to defend the Bible to non-believers, if you are preaching that you question of it yourself?
“Safe place”, but safe for who?
Hi Susie. Thanks for your post. I really appreciate your concern that my emphasis on PCC being a “safe place” might echo the “prosperity/feel good” teaching. I am so far from that idea but I understand how that could be heard. You’ll notice in my message “A Defining Moment” that I clarified that safe did not mean comfortable. I went on to say that being at PCC will not be comfortable. We are not a sitting church but a serving church. We strive to live to the high calling of following Jesus.
Just this past weekend in introducing our new teaching Series (The Big Story – God’s Quest to Bless) I made it very clear that the blessing God wants for us is NOT primarily prosperity, health or weatlh. Someday I’ll do a whole sermon on the fallicy of the “health and wealth gospel” teaching. God has blessed all of us (rich or poor, healthy or sick) with every spiritual blessing and we are required as followers of Jesus to be pass that blessing to others – “Freely you have received, freely give.” I assure you we teach and practice the high calling and demands of following Jesus. I think you’ll continue to see that in our teaching and by our fruits. Again like I said this past weekend (6/10)following Jesus is the only way to restore God’s blessing and reverse the curse, but it is not an easy way. I’m sorry that you heard “the easy way” in my my message.
Thank you Pastor Glen Elliot for responding to my message. I was beginning to think that because I commented on June 4th, (almost a month after this “Defining Moment” sermon) that it was relatively pointless to even comment and I certainly didn’t expect to actually hear a response from anyone muchless you. I appreciate that you took the time to make some clarification.
I do respect your point of view and I realize what a tough position that you must have been in when giving this “Defining Moment” sermon. It wasn’t until listening to the sermon several times, did I realize how devistated your heart must have been by this situation. I apologize if the harshness of my response has brought back stressful memories of the month prior.
I have been, however, reluctant to listen to additional messages, as I wasn’t sure what type of Christianity I was going to be listening to. Biblical or not, prosperity or not? Since you have given me some reassurance in this blog response, I will make an attempt this week to listen online to the “The Big Story – God’s Quest to Bless”.
As for the Mormonism blog after it’s May 11th start date, it is still going back and forth. From what you blogged about your lesson on The Big Story – God’s Quest to Bless”, it might actually correspond with some of the topic in the LDS blog from today, June 24th.
I know for me, it just really bums me out that people want God to be who they want God to be, instead of who He IS.
One of the LDS people stated that they wouldn’t follow a God who would make Jesus the only way to Salvation and then allow babies to die, or Aborigines to never hear the gospel, therefore exclude them from eternity. It should be interesting for me to see how much your lesson either reinforces or contradicts my blog entries in response to that LDS writer from earlier today.
God bless.